Unveiling Mormon History: Insights from Sandra and Jerald Tanner

The discussion begins with an exploration of the Book of Mormon, highlighting that it has undergone approximately 4,000 changes since its original publication. This contrasts with the claim that the Book of Mormon was delivered word for word from God, unlike the Bible. The speakers express concern over the church's narrative that it has never been tampered with, revealing that the church has always had access to Joseph Smith's seer stone and has been less transparent about the translation process.

John Dehlin introduces Nemo, a British commentator on Mormonism, who is co-hosting the episode. This marks Nemo's first time co-hosting an interview in Utah, and he expresses his eagerness to engage with Sandra Tanner, a significant figure in Mormon criticism. The conversation emphasizes the importance of learning from the Tanners' work, as they have been pivotal in exposing issues within the church.

The episode aims to reintroduce Sandra and Jerald Tanner's critical discoveries to a new generation of Mormons and ex-Mormons. John notes that the audience has changed significantly over the past decade, with many listeners being unfamiliar with the Tanners' contributions. The discussion will cover various topics, including changes to the Book of Mormon, issues with the Book of Abraham, and the Kinderhook plates.

Sandra and Jerald Tanner played a pivotal role in highlighting the changes in the narrative of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They operated counseling services through the Utah Lighthouse Ministry bookstore for decades, which has since closed. Sandra remains a believer in Christ despite her departure from Mormonism.

The discussion shifts to the textual changes in the Book of Mormon, which Sandra Tanner documented in her 1965 publication. This work revealed thousands of alterations made between the original 1830 edition and later versions, challenging the claim of a perfect translation. Sandra recounts how her mother had previously noted significant changes, such as the insertion of 'the Son of' in verses regarding Mary, which altered theological implications.

The Tanners explored the theological shifts within Mormonism, particularly Joseph Smith's transition from a belief in one God to the concept of plural gods by the time of the Nauvoo period. They encountered a group in Independence, Missouri, that emphasized the Book of Mormon's original teachings on monotheism, which prompted them to investigate the extent of changes made to the text.

In the 1960s, researching Mormonism posed significant challenges due to the lack of accessible resources. The Tanners arranged to obtain photocopies of the rare 1830 Book of Mormon from the University of Utah, as there were no photo reprints available at the time. Accessing such materials required visiting specialized libraries, often involving microfilm, which were scarce and difficult to find.

Sandra and Jerald Tanner discussed their early research efforts into Mormon history, highlighting the challenges they faced in accessing documents. They initially relied on the University of Utah's library for special collections, unaware that the Salt Lake Library also had valuable resources. They arranged to obtain photocopies of the original Book of Mormon, which allowed them to reference the original text when discussing changes, addressing concerns about the credibility of their sources.

The Tanners noted that the early anti-Mormon literature was limited, mentioning Ed Buv Varson's Utah Track Society, which published brief pamphlets on various issues within Mormonism. They acknowledged Fawn Brodie's influential book from 1945, which was pivotal in Mormon historical discourse, although it only briefly mentioned some changes in the Book of Mormon.

The Tanners undertook a meticulous process of comparing the original 1830 Book of Mormon with a later edition from the early 1960s. They read the texts side by side, marking changes in spelling, textual content, and theological implications. This involved coding the changes and documenting them in the margins, which took them an entire summer to complete, excluding Sundays, as they observed a day of rest.

During their analysis, the Tanners discovered notable changes in the Book of Mormon, such as the alteration of names from Benjamin to Mosiah, which raised chronological issues within the narrative. They identified specific instances where changes were made to align the text with the storyline, revealing the complexities and inconsistencies in the book's history.

The discussion highlights that significant changes in Mormon theology began in 1837, with specific alterations noted in the text of the Book of Mormon. The speakers reference Brody's mention of these changes, particularly regarding the term 'Son of God,' which was modified during this period. They emphasize that these changes correspond with the First Vision, which fundamentally affects the teachings surrounding it.

The speakers delve into specific textual changes within the Book of Mormon, noting that references to 'Jesus Christ' were altered to 'Messiah' in certain passages. This raises questions about the narrative's consistency, as characters in the story would not have known the name 'Jesus Christ' at that time. They discuss how the chronology of the text, particularly from the book of Mosiah onward, reflects Joseph Smith's writing process, which complicates the understanding of prophetic knowledge within the narrative.

The speakers assert that their study represents the first comprehensive examination of the changes made to the Book of Mormon. They mention a reprint of the first edition by Wilford Woodruff, which was merely a photo reproduction, lacking a comparative analysis of the changes. They utilized original texts from the University of Utah to establish credibility and reliability in their findings, addressing skepticism about their research.

The discussion reveals that the number of changes made to the Book of Mormon is significant, initially cited as 3,913 but later acknowledged to be closer to 4,000. The speakers reflect on the implications of these changes, particularly in light of the prevailing narrative that the Book of Mormon was a direct, unaltered translation from God, contrasting it with the Bible's textual history.

The speakers critique the common apologetic defense that changes in the Book of Mormon were merely the result of printer errors. They argue that this explanation is insufficient, as many changes appear to be deliberate and significant, challenging the notion that the text was divinely preserved. They emphasize that the narrative of the Book of Mormon has been altered in ways that contradict the foundational claims of its unaltered divine origin.

The discussion highlights significant textual changes in the Book of Mormon, particularly the shift from the phrase 'murder against the Holy Ghost' in the original 1830 edition to 'commit the unpardonable sin' in later versions. This alteration is noted as a substantive change, reflecting a broader trend of corrections and clarifications in the text, including the correction of names from King Benjamin to Mosiah and the addition of the phrase 'Waters of baptism' in Joseph Smith's quotations of Isaiah, which was not present in the original text.

The speakers reflect on the traditional narrative surrounding Joseph Smith's translation of the Book of Mormon, which emphasized the use of the Urim and Thummim as divine tools for translation. However, they reveal a lesser-known aspect involving a seer stone that Smith allegedly used, which he would place in his hat to read the words that appeared. This introduces a new understanding of the translation process, suggesting that it was not solely mechanical but involved a more complex interaction between Smith and the divine.

The conversation raises questions about the accuracy of the Book of Mormon's translation, emphasizing that according to David Whitmer's accounts, every word had to be precisely dictated to the scribe, and no changes were permitted during the process. This leads to a critical examination of the nearly 4,000 changes made in subsequent editions of the text, challenging the notion that God would allow such errors and suggesting a need to reconsider the reliability of the translation narrative as it was presented in the past.

The speakers express their disillusionment with the historical narratives they were taught regarding the translation of the Book of Mormon. They note that the narrative has evolved over the decades, with the seer stone being introduced into the discussion only recently, contrasting sharply with the earlier belief that the Urim and Thummim was the sole instrument of divine revelation. This shift in understanding reflects broader changes in how Mormon history is interpreted and taught.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has always been aware of Joseph Smith's use of the seer stone, which was integral to his early practices, including treasure digging. Despite this knowledge, the Church perpetuated a false narrative about the origins of the Book of Mormon, neglecting to mention the seer stone's role in its translation. This misinformation was evident in Church manuals and publications, which failed to acknowledge the historical accounts of witnesses who described the seer stone's use.

Sandra Tanner recounts how access to historical documents regarding the Church's history was limited, especially for members outside the United States. In Salt Lake City, individuals could find references and documents in local bookstores, such as Sam Weller's, but international members often relied solely on correlated Church materials, which omitted critical historical context. This lack of access meant that many members were unaware of significant historical facts about the Church.

In response to criticisms of the original narrative regarding the translation of the Book of Mormon, the Church has adapted its explanation. Blake Osler introduced the concept of 'loose versus tight translation,' suggesting that Joseph Smith's translation was influenced by his 19th-century context rather than being a direct word-for-word translation. This shift indicates that the original narrative was implausible, as it contradicted the testimonies of witnesses who claimed that every word was dictated precisely from the seer stone.

The discussion highlights a shift in the Church's narrative regarding the Book of Mormon, suggesting that Joseph Smith's influences are now being acknowledged as part of the text's creation. The speakers note that the Church is attempting to obscure the historical context, claiming that the translation was done by the 'gift and power of God' without a clear understanding of the process. This reflects a broader trend where Church apologists, including Richard Bushman and Patrick Mason, are increasingly framing the Book of Mormon as a 19th-century document rather than a historical record, suggesting it is more of a revelation than a translation.

Sandra Tanner introduces the website utlm.org, which hosts a wealth of resources, including PDFs of her publications that expose changes made by Joseph Smith to the Book of Mormon. This initiative aims to provide new scholars and interested individuals with access to original source texts, encouraging them to verify claims independently rather than relying solely on the speakers' assertions.

The conversation shifts to the Book of Abraham, where Tanner discusses the significance of original papyrus documents in critiquing Joseph Smith's translation claims. She recounts how the Church has been aware of issues with the Book of Abraham since the 1850s, when early Egyptologists questioned the accuracy of the text. The Metropolitan Museum of Art acquired papyrus fragments in 1912, which were linked to Joseph Smith, and by this time, Egyptology had advanced significantly, leading to further scrutiny of Smith's translations.

Major Egyptologists were consulted regarding the illustrations in the Book of Abraham, specifically the facsimiles in the Pearl of Great Price. They unanimously stated that these illustrations had no connection to the narrative of Abraham, identifying them instead as standard Egyptian burial documents. This led to significant media coverage, including a front-page article in the New York Times in 1912, which declared the findings as fraudulent. The church was put on notice that the Book of Abraham's authenticity was in question, and it became evident that the church was reluctant to address these issues.

The church maintained working papers related to the Book of Abraham, including a volume titled 'Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar.' This document contained Joseph Smith's attempts to translate Egyptian characters, where he would copy characters from papyri and provide English translations alongside them. Notably, one character was a backward 'E,' from which Smith claimed he could derive entire paragraphs, a belief rooted in the common misconception of the time that ancient languages could convey vast amounts of information through single characters. This flawed understanding was also reflected in the Book of Mormon's narrative about its own language.

The church kept the 'Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar' document largely secret, allowing only a select few scholars to examine it. In the mid-1960s, a friend managed to obtain a microfilm of this document, which led to the publication of a booklet titled 'Why Egyptologists Reject the Book of Abraham.' At this time, there was a widespread belief that the original papyri had been destroyed in the Great Chicago Fire of the 1870s, which contributed to the ongoing challenges in addressing the Book of Abraham's authenticity.

The discussion included a reference to the 1912 New York Times article, which highlighted the church's awareness of the issues surrounding the Book of Abraham. The article served as a critical piece of evidence, suggesting that the church had known about the discrepancies in Joseph Smith's translations and interpretations for a long time. The speakers emphasized the importance of understanding what the church knew and when, framing it as a significant concern regarding the church's transparency and accountability.

The discussion highlights longstanding problems with the Book of Abraham, dating back to the time of B.H. Roberts, who raised various concerns. In the mid-1960s, the Tanners began publishing numerous works critiquing the Book of Abraham, amidst rumors that some of the original papyri might still exist. The Church recognized the growing public scrutiny regarding the Book of Abraham, prompting them to take action.

In the mid-1960s, during an expansion at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, Dr. Atia, an Egyptian Coptic professor from the University of Utah, was shown photos of the Joseph Smith papyri. Contrary to the Church's narrative that Atia stumbled upon the papyri, it was revealed that the museum's directors intentionally presented the materials to him, leading to a connection with the Church to acquire the papyri.

Following the announcement of the papyri's existence, there was a rush within the Church to gather more information. The Improvement Era magazine published photos of the papyri in February 1968, indicating a hurried effort as the pages were inserted into the magazine, suggesting that the inclusion was not part of the original plan. This urgency was likely influenced by the Tanners' publications challenging the Church's claims.

The Church's decision to release the original papyri was driven by a belief that doing so would validate Joseph Smith's claims. A friend of the Tanners had obtained Polaroid photos of the papyri, which put pressure on the Church to release their own high-quality images. There was an expectation that possessing the original documents would allow the Church to vindicate Smith's translation efforts, reflecting a pattern seen later with the Mark Hoffman incident.

An intermediary acquires documents with the intention of using them to support their narrative, as seen in the case of the purported blessing of Joseph Smith III. This strategy aims to prevent the Community of Christ or the LDS group from challenging their claims, thereby controlling the narrative.

Gerald Tanner and his associates, including Grant Huard, worked on uncovering the connection between Joseph Smith's translation of the Book of Abraham and the Egyptian papyri. They discovered that part of the manuscript was preserved in the alphabet and grammar documents, allowing them to align Egyptian characters with the translation claims made by Smith. The specific piece of papyri in question was identified as the small csen text, which was believed to be part of the scroll following Facsimile Number One.

Upon translating the identified piece of papyri, it was revealed that it had no relation to Abraham but was instead a condensed version of the Book of Breathings, part of the Egyptian Book of the Dead. DJ Nelson, an Egyptologist, provided this translation, which was corroborated by other scholars, indicating a consistent message that contradicted Smith's claims.

In light of the translation findings, the Church faced the challenge of explaining the discrepancies between the papyri and the Book of Abraham. Scholars proposed the 'Catalyst Theory,' suggesting that the papyri served merely as a catalyst for Joseph Smith's revelation rather than a direct translation source. This theory posits that Smith's interpretation was divinely inspired rather than a literal translation.

Sandra Tanner critiques the Catalyst Theory, arguing that it undermines the historical basis of the Book of Abraham, suggesting it is merely Joseph Smith's invention without any historical ties. She emphasizes that if Smith intended to translate the papyri directly, the theory fails to account for the lack of accuracy in his translations, as evidenced by the numerous changes made to the Book of Mormon over time.

Tanner reflects on the irony of the LDS belief that modern revelations provide a reliable foundation, contrasting it with the historical claims that Christian texts were corrupted by 'wicked priests.' She argues that the revelations attributed to Joseph Smith do not hold up under scrutiny, as they lack the reliability that was once claimed for them, revealing a troubling inconsistency in the Church's narrative.

The discussion highlights significant problems with the Book of Abraham, suggesting it may not be a translation but rather a revelation, which raises concerns about Joseph Smith's role as an inventor of the text. This is compounded by the issues previously discussed regarding the Book of Mormon, which is considered the keystone of the Mormon faith by past prophets like Gordon B. Hinckley. The assertion that the Book of Mormon is either the greatest work on earth or a fraud underscores the gravity of these claims. The current emphasis within the church on having a living prophet raises questions about the validity of prophetic claims when foundational texts do not align with historical evidence.

The conversation delves into the definition of translation as understood in the time of Joseph Smith, emphasizing that it should involve converting one language into another. However, the evidence presented shows discrepancies between the source material and the translated texts, particularly in the case of the Book of Abraham. The discussion also hints at the Kinderhook Plates, suggesting a need for further exploration of this topic.

Sandra Tanner encourages listeners to conduct their own research regarding the claims made about Joseph Smith's translations. She references a New Era article that includes photographs of papyrus fragments, which were crucial in proving the inaccuracies in Smith's claims about translating the Book of Abraham. While acknowledging the church's publication of these materials, she critiques the lack of transparency in how the church presented the information, suggesting that the church's narrative did not adequately address the discrepancies between the original texts and Smith's interpretations.

The discussion reveals that Joseph Smith's translations of Egyptian texts, particularly those related to the Book of Abraham, are fundamentally flawed. Tanner points out that the original documents depict standard burial scenes, such as Osiris on a couch with Anubis standing beside him, which contradicts Smith's interpretations. This misrepresentation raises serious questions about the validity of Smith's claims and the church's teachings based on these translations.

Discussion centers on the Book of Abraham, highlighting the inaccuracies in Joseph Smith's translation efforts. The speaker references a jackal-headed god depicted in the papyrus, which was misinterpreted due to missing pieces. They express pride in having interviewed Robert Ritner, a renowned Egyptologist, for 13 hours, who provided a detailed analysis of the papyrus and its implications. The speaker emphasizes that their findings, available in their publication 'Mormonism Shadow Reality,' demonstrate that the Book of Abraham is a complete fabrication by Joseph Smith.

The conversation shifts to the Kinderhook Plates, which were fabricated in Pike County, Illinois, in the 1840s. The speakers recount how non-Mormon individuals created these brass plates to challenge Mormon claims. Joseph Smith, intrigued by the discovery, took the plates seriously enough that they were featured in Mormon publications like 'Times and Seasons.' The speakers argue that Smith's engagement with the Kinderhook Plates illustrates his susceptibility to deception, as he believed they were ancient artifacts, further questioning the authenticity of his prophetic claims.

On May 22, 1844, just a month before his death, the Warsaw Signal published a statement indicating that Joseph Smith was engaged in translating a new work, which was suggested to be a sequel to the Book of Mormon. This was during a tumultuous time for Smith, as he faced numerous church problems and accusations of being a fallen prophet, including allegations of polygamy. The discussion highlights the potential motivations behind Smith's claim of translating new scripture amidst these challenges.

William Clayton, Joseph Smith's private secretary, recorded in his journal on May 1, 1843, that he had seen six brass plates covered with ancient characters and had translated a portion of them. He claimed these plates contained the history of a person who was a descendant of Ham through Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of Heaven and Earth. This account, published in History of the Church, Volume 5, page 372, raises questions about the authenticity and accuracy of Smith's translations, particularly regarding his understanding of the term 'Pharaoh.'

The discussion critiques the authenticity of Joseph Smith's claims regarding the plates, suggesting that if he did not actually translate them, he must have fabricated the narrative about their contents. This leads to a dilemma for defenders of Smith, as they must reconcile Clayton's credible account with the problematic nature of Smith's assertions, especially considering the historical and genetic evidence that contradicts the lineage claims made about the individual associated with the plates.

The Kinderhook Plates, which Joseph Smith took seriously at the time, have been downplayed by the church as a mere distraction. However, the discussion emphasizes that even if these plates served as a catalyst for Smith's supposed divine revelation, the content of that revelation is fundamentally flawed. The plates, initially claimed to be authentic by the church, were later proven to be modern forgeries, with tests revealing that the metal composition did not match that of ancient brass plates.

The discussion centers on the Kinderhook Plates, revealing that tests conducted on the plates indicate they are made of a modern alloy, not ancient metal. The uniform thickness of the plates suggests they were rolled, a process not achievable with ancient techniques. Additionally, a punch hole on the plate was made using a modern punch, evidenced by the way it penetrates the metal. The etching on the plates was done with acid, contrasting with ancient methods that would have involved carving or inscription. Despite these findings, some Mormon scholars, like Stan Kimball, attempt to distance Joseph Smith from the plates, arguing that he did not take them seriously, even though historical records indicate he provided descriptions of their significance.

Sandra Tanner highlights 'Mormonism Shadow Reality' as a comprehensive resource on the historical problems within Mormonism, asserting it remains a significant work even in 2025. Originally published in 1987, the book has undergone multiple editions, expanding its coverage of various topics related to Mormon truth claims. Tanner emphasizes that while other works may delve deeper into specific issues, their book provides a broad overview of major topics, totaling around 600 pages filled with quotes, photocopies, and documentation. It addresses the church's attempts to suppress its history and the contradictions within its claims, making it a vital resource for understanding Mormonism's complexities. The book was notably featured in the series 'Under the Banner of Heaven,' where a character's loss of faith is depicted as he reads it.

The discussion highlights the avoidance of criticisms of the church during the 70s, 80s, and 90s, particularly referencing the book 'Mormonism: Shadow or Reality?' which church leaders labeled as anti-Mormon literature. The speakers assert that the historical claims made in this book have proven to be solid over generations, influencing many subsequent works on Mormonism.

The conversation shifts to the church's recent admissions regarding significant historical issues, such as the papyrus not being related to Abraham and the Kinderhook plates being forgeries. The speakers suggest that Joseph Smith, who had experience with metalwork, should have been able to recognize the Kinderhook plates as forgeries due to their uniformity and modern appearance.

The speakers discuss various cover-ups by the church, emphasizing the 1832 account of the First Vision, which was not widely known or available. They reference Fawn Brodie's work, which questioned when the First Vision became a significant part of the church's narrative, noting the absence of early accounts and the reliance on later publications, such as the 1842 printing in 'Times and Seasons.'

The speakers recount their quest for information on the First Vision, revealing that early church publications and journals did not consistently reference the event as occurring in 1820. They express frustration over the lack of earlier records and the church's apparent tampering with documents, which made it difficult to trace the origins of the First Vision narrative.

In the late 1950s and early 1960s, one speaker shares their experience of meeting with their bishop, who attempted to help them reconcile their faith. The bishop offered to contact Joseph Fielding Smith, a church historian and apostle, to seek clarity on the historical accounts of the First Vision, highlighting the challenges faced by individuals seeking truth within the church's historical narrative.

The discussion begins with questions about the First Vision, specifically regarding the original accounts. The speaker expresses a desire to obtain a photocopy of the original Joseph Smith account, unaware that the 1842 account was being withheld. They mention the existence of an earlier handwritten account from 1832, which they were not informed about. The speaker reflects on Joseph Smith's efforts in 1838 to compile his church history, which would later be published in the Times and Seasons in 1842, and their quest to find the earliest written account of the First Vision.

The narrative reveals that Joseph Fielding Smith, aware of the 1832 account, had previously shown it to Levi Edgar Young in the 1950s. Young described it as a 'strange account' of the First Vision, indicating that some church leaders were aware of its existence. The speaker, however, was unaware of this and assumed there must be an original account. The discussion highlights the secrecy surrounding the 1832 account, which Smith had cut from a letter book to prevent others from discovering it.

The speaker recounts how a BYU student in the 1960s learned about a thesis written by Paul Chesman that referenced the 1832 account. Although the thesis discussed the account, it did not include the full text in its appendix. After requesting the complete account, the student sent the appendix, which contained the full text of the 1832 account, leading to a significant revelation for the speaker. This moment is described as a 'bombshell,' as it provided the first account of the First Vision, which had been previously concealed.

The speaker reflects on Joseph Fielding Smith's reluctance to provide the 1832 account, noting his comment to a bishop that it would not convince the speaker. This indicates Smith's awareness that the account could be deeply challenging to the speaker's beliefs. The speaker critiques Smith's assumptions about their potential reaction to the account, suggesting that the content might not align with Smith's expectations of what should be convincing.

Lamar Peterson revealed a strange account about Levi Edgar Young, who had passed away in 1963. This account, which was initially kept secret, came to light through Peterson's discussions, leading to the publication of the 1832 account of Joseph Smith's First Vision. This account was first made accessible in 1964 as an appendix in an academic thesis, but it did not gain widespread attention outside of a niche group of Mormon scholars.

The 1832 account of the First Vision, which claimed that Joseph Smith did not see two distinct individuals, but rather 'the Lord,' was significant as it contradicted later accounts. This account was published with the subtitle 'important document suppressed for 130 years now comes to light,' highlighting its controversial nature. The discussion emphasized how this account aligns with the theology of the 1830 Book of Mormon, suggesting an evolving theology in Joseph Smith's revelations.

The conversation pointed out that the changes in the Book of Mormon and the subsequent accounts of the First Vision reflect an evolving theology within the Mormon faith. The 1837 edition of the Book of Mormon introduced changes that aligned with the later 1838 account of the First Vision, which included the vision of two individuals, indicating a shift in Joseph Smith's theological narrative over time.

The speakers discussed the challenges in Mormon history, noting that the church has historically portrayed its revelations as perfect and unchanging. However, they argued that the reality is a complex patchwork of documents that have undergone revisions. Since the early 1900s, the church has downplayed specific revelations, moving away from the expectation of ongoing divine communication, which contrasts with earlier beliefs about imminent revelations.

The speakers presented a visual comparison of Joseph Smith's First Vision as it was originally published versus its current form, noting that the text has nearly doubled in length. They highlighted that this expansion includes the addition of characters and motives, raising concerns about the authenticity and integrity of the original account. This alteration is seen as problematic, necessitating a review of original sources to understand the changes.

The discussion briefly touched on the confusion surrounding who brought the Book of Mormon to Joseph Smith, questioning whether it was Nephi or Moroni. This ambiguity in the documentation reflects deeper issues within the narrative of the Book of Mormon and highlights the complexities of its historical claims.

The discussion highlights a significant confusion in the early church regarding the identities of Nephi and Moroni. Initially, Joseph Smith identified the angel as Moroni, but later references in church publications, including the Times and Seasons, indicated it was Nephi. By the time of Smith's death, the church had reverted to calling the angel Moroni, raising questions about the historical accuracy of these claims. This inconsistency suggests a pattern of invention rather than factual history, as it is implausible to confuse figures from different time periods, such as Nephi from 600 BC and Moroni from 421 AD.

The speakers note that Joseph Smith exhibited a recurring issue with accurately identifying heavenly visitors. This includes confusion over biblical figures, such as mistaking Elijah for Elias, indicating a broader pattern of misidentification that raises doubts about his prophetic claims. The discussion references the book 'Joseph Smith's Strange Account of the First Vision,' available on the Utah Lighthouse Ministry website, which further explores these inconsistencies.

The conversation shifts to the alterations made to the revelations between the Book of Commandments (1833) and the Doctrine and Covenants (1835). The speakers, referencing David Whitmer's pamphlet, explain that significant revisions occurred during this period, particularly in Section 27, which originally contained less detail regarding priesthood restoration. The modifications included the addition of various visions and experiences that were not present in the original text, illustrating how Joseph Smith's revelations were edited to suit evolving church needs.

The speakers emphasize that not only were the scriptures altered, but also the revelations themselves were subject to change. For instance, the original revelation regarding Oliver Cowdery's gift was modified to obscure its magical connotations, transforming it into the 'gift of Aaron.' Additionally, the narrative surrounding Joseph Smith's prophetic gifts was expanded to suggest that the Book of Mormon was just the beginning of his divine calling, rather than the sole purpose of his mission.

The discussion highlights that early revelations within the Mormon Church underwent modifications to incorporate a priesthood concept that was absent at the church's inception. It is suggested that Whitmer may have been excluded from the discussions when Peter, James, and John introduced these changes, indicating a lack of early documentation regarding the priesthood, particularly the 'mesic priesthood' which only emerged as a concept around 1832.

The Tanners recount their meticulous process of reproducing early Mormon documents, particularly from the 'Times and Seasons' publication. They sourced microfilms from Universal Microfilm in Salt Lake City, which involved a complex procedure of converting microfilm into paper masters for printing. This process was both labor-intensive and financially challenging, as they operated on a tight budget, often struggling to keep their project afloat.

The Tanners express their belief that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints maintains extensive records, which is a hallmark of Mormon culture. They were motivated by the expectation that the church would have preserved early documents and magazines, leading them to collaborate with a microfilm company that had access to these materials.

In their work, particularly in 'Case Against Mormonism Volume One' and 'Mormonism: Shadow or Reality?', the Tanners provide numerous examples of changes made to the revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants. They emphasize that their first volume contains the most extensive documentation of these changes, illustrating the evolving nature of church doctrine over time.

The conversation shifts to Michelle Stone, who identifies as a Joseph Smith monogamy affirmer, contrasting with those who label her followers as polygamy deniers. The Tanners mention a recent lunch with Stone, where she presented her arguments against the credibility of documentation supporting Joseph Smith's polygamy. The discussion hints at a possible concession from the Tanners regarding the strength of the evidence for Smith's polygamous practices.

The discussion centers on the evidence regarding Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy, highlighting that existing documents are considered weak. The speaker notes that Joseph Smith publicly claimed there was no polygamy, raising questions about the reliability of sources. A significant point of contention is the Clayton diary, which is viewed as a 'clean copy' lacking original corrections, leading to skepticism about its authenticity. The timing of this clean copy's production—whether in Nauvoo or Utah—could influence its credibility, especially if it was produced under Brigham Young's influence. The speaker expresses uncertainty about the timeline of the clean copy's creation and suggests that historians need to investigate this further, but doubts that it would substantiate the conspiracy theory proposed by the other party, which claims that polygamists conspired to create a false narrative to support their claims.

The conversation shifts to the Nauvoo Expositor and its relation to Doctrine and Covenants (D&C) 132. The speaker argues that the Expositor's content is too similar to D&C 132 to dismiss it as a late revelation. They reference historical documents from the 1830s, including an 1835 D&C that denounces polygamy and an 1831 revelation that instructed Mormon men to marry Indian women. The speaker acknowledges that the other party has her own interpretations of these documents, which she tends to downplay. The speaker emphasizes the importance of examining original documents to understand the historical context better.

The speaker reflects on the importance of dialogue between individuals with differing views, specifically mentioning a recent conversation with Michelle Stone. They appreciate her sincerity and willingness to learn, noting that despite their disagreements, it is crucial to engage in discussions about source documents. The speaker believes that the historical evidence will ultimately show that the origins of polygamy claims lie with Joseph Smith, citing the Nauvoo Expositor as significant proof. They also mention the broader implications of having respectful conversations, especially given the familial connection to Brigham Young, which adds a personal dimension to the discussion.

The speaker discusses the scenario painted by Michelle Stone regarding Brigham Young's role in defending the church's integrity during the temple lot case. She suggests that Young pressured women to sign affidavits claiming they had sexual relations with Joseph Smith, regardless of the truth. The speaker summarizes her perspective, indicating that Young and his associates may have coerced women into affirming these claims, which raises ethical concerns about the authenticity of such testimonies. This narrative highlights the complexities of historical accounts surrounding polygamy and the potential manipulation of evidence.

The discussion centers on the historical evidence surrounding Joseph Smith and the accusations against him during the 1840s. The speaker argues that the charges were not fabricated later, as they were documented at the time, contrasting them with later affidavits from the 1870s and 80s. They emphasize that the claims made by individuals like John C. Bennett in his book and the Expositor newspaper cannot be dismissed simply because Bennett is labeled a 'scallywag.' The speaker points out that Bennett named women who were later confirmed to be Joseph Smith's plural wives, suggesting that his claims were not mere coincidence.

The speaker critiques the notion that Brigham Young and the Twelve Apostles were involved in a conspiracy to fabricate a narrative about Joseph Smith's polygamy. They argue that such a theory would require a mass conspiracy among many historical figures, including those who documented their experiences in diaries during the Nauvoo period. The speaker reflects on their own journey of belief, recalling discussions with a friend who encouraged them to explore various documents that ultimately led to their change in perspective.

The conversation shifts to the efforts made by the Tanners through the Utah Lighthouse Ministry to support individuals questioning their faith in the LDS Church. The speaker highlights the importance of sharing discovered truths and providing resources to those struggling with their beliefs. They discuss the transition from discovering troubling aspects of Mormonism to actively engaging with others to help them navigate their own faith crises, emphasizing the need for personal conversations and published materials.

The Tanners reflect on their personal quest for truth after leaving Mormonism, grappling with questions about their beliefs and identity. They express a desire to retain aspects of their Christian upbringing while discarding the elements of Mormonism that they found untrue. The struggle to find a place in the broader Christian community after leaving the LDS Church is acknowledged, highlighting the challenges faced by many who exit high-demand religions.

Sandra Tanner reflects on her and Jerald's transition from Mormonism to Christianity, describing their initial feelings of being outsiders in the Christian community. They struggled to find a church home in Salt Lake City, where options were limited in 1960, with most churches having small congregations. After three years of still believing in the Book of Mormon, they began to explore biblical translations and the reliability of biblical texts, moving away from the Mormon perspective that every word was divinely inspired. They found confidence in the New Testament through the works of scholars like F.F. Bruce and Bruce Meder, realizing that translations are not perfect but still valuable. Sandra advises those leaving Mormonism to read modern translations, such as the Phillips paraphrase New Testament, to gain a clearer understanding of scripture, as the King James Version can be confusing. Their journey led them to seek a more forgiving and liberating form of Christianity, contrasting it with the burdensome guilt and perfectionism they experienced in Mormonism.

Sandra discusses the cultural adjustments they faced when integrating into the Christian community, noting the shock of encountering practices like serving coffee in church and the more relaxed dress codes compared to their Mormon background. She emphasizes that the cultural gap for Mormons transitioning to evangelical worship has likely widened since their experience, making it even more challenging for contemporary Mormons. Despite these challenges, they felt a strong obligation to share a version of Christianity that offered forgiveness and freedom from guilt, contrasting it with the Mormon experience of constantly striving for perfection.

The Tanners felt compelled to inform Mormons about a form of Christianity that could liberate them from the constraints of their previous beliefs. They believed that many Mormons were 'held prisoner' by the teachings of a false prophet and that returning to the New Testament would provide a simpler, more direct relationship with God. Their mission was to present a more positive and helpful understanding of Christianity, one that emphasized forgiveness and the ability to move on from mistakes without the burden of guilt.

The discussion highlights the exhausting nature of striving for worthiness in Mormonism, where adherence to commandments is seen as a prerequisite for achieving eternal security and forgiveness through God. The speakers express a desire to help individuals find a healthier, more wholesome path to worshiping God, rather than feeling burdened by the rigorous demands of temple rituals.

The conversation touches on the trend within the ex-Mormon community, where many individuals lean towards atheism after leaving the faith. However, the speakers emphasize the importance of engaging with those who have maintained a Christian faith post-Mormonism, showcasing a diverse range of beliefs and experiences among former Mormons.

One speaker, a direct descendant of Brigham Young, reflects on their complex relationship with their Mormon heritage. They describe a gradual shift in their social circle towards friendships with individuals lacking a Mormon background, which has allowed them to create a separation from their past while still acknowledging their roots. Despite this detachment, they recognize that their identity is intertwined with their Mormon ancestry.

Sandra Tanner addresses the criticism directed at her and Jerald for deconstructing Mormonism without applying the same scrutiny to Christianity. She argues that the existence of numerous professional biblical scholars who maintain their Christian faith despite extensive education and research challenges the assumption that knowledge inevitably leads to disbelief. Tanner believes that the historical evidence for Jesus and the early New Testament manuscripts supports the foundation of Christianity, despite acknowledging textual differences and scholarly debates.

Tanner asserts that the explosive growth of Christianity can be attributed to the genuine belief of Jesus' followers in his resurrection, which she views as a miraculous event. She emphasizes that the early manuscripts of the New Testament provide a historical basis for the claims made about Jesus, arguing that these texts predate any significant tampering by groups or individuals, thus securing her faith in Christianity.

The discussion highlights the significance of personal spiritual experiences, with the speaker acknowledging that these experiences, often dismissed as mere testimonies, are indeed valuable. They emphasize that even after leaving the church, individuals can still recognize and frame their past spiritual feelings differently without negating their authenticity. The speaker reflects on their own experiences as a teenager, recalling moments when they felt God answered their prayers, and they now interpret these events in a broader context of divine mercy rather than strictly within Mormonism.

The speaker offers advice to younger critics of the church, reflecting on their own approach to challenging the institution. They candidly admit that their initial methods were aggressive and lacked finesse, likening their approach to 'a bull in a china closet.' They caution against jumping to conclusions, as seen in the case of the Mark Hoffman forgeries, where they chose integrity over sensationalism by withholding publication until they were certain of the material's credibility. This highlights the importance of careful representation and verification in discussions about Mormonism, urging new critics to be diligent and accurate in their claims.

The Tanners express their commitment to research integrity, recounting their early experiences with misrepresentations of Mormon beliefs in Christian literature. They were particularly concerned about inaccuracies regarding historical teachings, such as the Adam-God doctrine and blood atonement, which were often misattributed or misrepresented. This led them to prioritize verifiable material in their own work, ensuring that any claims made could be substantiated by accessible documents, thus fostering a more accurate understanding of Mormon history and doctrine.

Sandra Tanner reflects on the importance of accuracy in their research, emphasizing that both she and Jerald Tanner were initially excited about their findings but became cautious when questions arose. They prioritized standing behind their work, having encountered inaccuracies in their own search for truth. This commitment to accuracy is mirrored in Sandra's current practice of listing all sources in her YouTube videos, allowing viewers to verify the information themselves. She expresses concern about the future of challenging the Church, especially as it begins to publish more documents like the Joseph Smith Papers, yet worries that the Church may not provide honest commentary alongside these publications. The challenge remains for members to know where to look for the truth, as the Church continues to simplify its narrative while avoiding past claims that have been proven wrong.

The discussion shifts to how the Church has historically managed its narrative, with Sandra noting that while the Church claims transparency, it has not always made critical documents readily available. She highlights the difficulty in accessing past publications, which are often not included in the Church's app, requiring members to seek them out online. This ongoing issue of access and transparency is likened to 'reinventing the wheel,' as the Church continues to face the same challenges in presenting its history, albeit in a different context than 60 years ago. Sandra points out that the Church's attempts to mainstream its practices, such as adopting Easter traditions, reflect a response to external pressures and a desire to be seen as more aligned with mainstream Christianity.

Sandra Tanner recounts her experience of leaving Mormonism in 1960 while working at Sears. A woman from her stake confronted her about her departure, questioning how she could leave the church. Sandra expressed her concern that the church focused more on itself than on Jesus Christ, highlighting a common perception that Mormons do not genuinely discuss Christ despite ending talks in His name.

Sandra discusses the ongoing struggle within Mormonism to be recognized as a Christian denomination. She notes that despite the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints having Christ in its name, many Christians do not consider it a true Christian faith. This has led the church to attempt to integrate more into mainstream Christianity, which could risk losing its unique identity and authority.

The conversation shifts to the concept of authority within the church. Sandra emphasizes that the LDS Church claims to possess divine authority and valid priesthood, which they argue is necessary for their ordinances to be meaningful. However, she points out that this notion of authority was not established until after the church's founding, raising questions about the validity of their truth claims.

John Dehlin inquires about the Tanners' perspective during the 60s and 70s as they uncovered various issues within Mormon doctrine, such as the multiple accounts of the First Vision and problems with the Book of Mormon. He reflects on the expectation that their research would lead to a significant decline in church membership, especially given the church's current wealth, estimated at $300 billion, and its status as a powerful multinational organization.

Despite the Tanners' extensive research and the availability of their findings through platforms like utlm.org, John questions why the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints remains resilient and financially powerful. He notes that, contrary to expectations, the church has not experienced a collapse in faithfulness among its members, even as more information about its history becomes accessible.

Despite the financial growth of the Mormon Church, evidenced by increasing wealth and effective management, membership is declining. The discussion highlights a disparity where financial success does not correlate with church growth, particularly in the context of broader trends affecting Christian churches. The decline in membership is particularly noticeable outside the Mormon Corridor, which includes Idaho, Utah, and Arizona, where the presence of Mormons has historically been strong. The speakers note that the cultural shift is leading to a less Mormon demographic in these areas.

The conversation shifts to the church's growth in Africa, where it claims a 1% growth rate in the U.S. driven by birth rates, contrasting with significant growth in Africa. The speakers ponder whether the church will eventually become more African in character, questioning the feasibility of maintaining American-centric leadership in a predominantly African church. They express concern over the lack of diversity in church leadership, noting that the top leadership remains predominantly Anglo-American, with only a few non-American members, which raises questions about the church's ability to adapt to a more diverse membership.

The speakers address the historical context of racial issues within the church, particularly the priesthood ban that affected Black members for over 150 years. They express skepticism about how current missionaries in Africa address these issues, suggesting that the church's foundation may be unstable if it fails to confront its past. The discussion highlights the broader implications of colonialism and representation in missionary work, questioning how the church can reconcile its history with its future as it becomes more ethnically diverse.

The speakers reflect on the American-centric nature of the church's history, noting that while the church has roots in the United States, it also has significant ties to Great Britain, where early converts played a crucial role. They mention that at one point, there were more church members in the UK than in the U.S. The lack of representation in leadership roles for British members, despite their historical significance, raises concerns about the church's inclusivity and ability to represent its diverse membership adequately.

The discussion highlights concerns regarding the Church's ability to represent its members in Africa, especially as the UK has seen 44 closures in recent years. The speakers question how a predominantly white leadership can adequately represent a growing African membership, suggesting that this disparity may lead to racial issues becoming more pronounced. They draw parallels to historical colonial behavior, noting that the Church's leadership is perceived as exploiting African members by promoting tithing as a solution to poverty, which reflects a colonial mindset that is increasingly criticized in today's society.

The conversation shifts to the excitement surrounding Nemo the Mormon, a young content creator who is gaining popularity for discussing Mormonism in various global contexts. Sandra Tanner expresses her endorsement of Nemo, acknowledging the significance of his work in bringing attention to the complexities of Mormonism. The speakers share a light-hearted moment about Nemo's casual on-air habits, indicating a friendly rapport and mutual respect between the generations of Mormon critics.

As the episode concludes, both Sandra Tanner and Nemo reflect on their experiences, with Nemo sharing his enjoyment of his time in the U.S., particularly highlighting his visit to Zion National Park. The speakers express gratitude for the opportunity to collaborate and share insights, emphasizing the importance of kindness and community in their discussions. They encourage listeners to engage with their work and support the Mormon Stories podcast, underscoring the role of donations in sustaining their efforts.